1) Of the lessons A-K in the handout "Applying the Lessons of Vietnam," which one is the most important one the USA should have learned from its experiences in the Vietnam conflict? Why do you think this lesson is more important than all of the others?
2) Did the USA actually learn this most important lesson in its recent involvements in Iraq, Afghanistan, and/or Libya (do some research if you need to)? Back up your answer with some evidence.
3) Critique (in a professional manner) the choice of the person who posted before you (agree/disagree with his/her choice of most important lesson, and why).
This 10 point assignment is due by 2/26/13 at 11:59pm. Comment to this post using your first name, last initial, and class period.
Good Luck!
37 comments:
Mitch Zoellner Period 3
1. Lesson E, leveling with people in the beginning. I believe this is the most important lesson because the main reason that the US lost the Vietnam war was because none of the citizens supported them. If the US befriended the citizens at the start of the war, I believe the US would have been more successful.
2. I believe the US has learned from their mistakes in the fight against terrorism. The US takes strides to become friendly with the citizens in order to help get information and help rebuild the country. But on the other hand, the US still has a hard time dealing with the guerrilla tactics that the Taliban and other insurgents use. I would say the US has learned from Vietnam, but not as much as they could have.
3. I am the first post.
Ryan L. 8th
1. I'd say Lesson F, the US isn't all-powerful. It's foolish to go around thinking you're the best or no one can defeat you. You have to know your weaknesses and flaws. I think the US has gotten a bit better, but I still think we have quite an ego that needs to be kept in check or it's going to hurt us again.
2. 9/11 and the war following I think have taught us that the US can be vulnerable and that there are forces out there that can challenge and scare us and wear us down. This war has been costly and long and has shown us that we can be opposed.
3. I agree with the main points that Mitch Z. made. The US has gotten better with keeping the public informed, which has made people more sympathetic towards the soldiers and the cause, but this war started off with something that really affected a lot of people emotionally anyway, so I think it also is natural that more people were behind the government.
Anthony A. 8th
1) I feel lesson E is the most important. I say this because a country cannot win a war if it does not have the support from its people. The Vietnam war was not supported much by the people of America as they did not see a reason for American involvment. Because of this we had anti-war protest, draft dodgers, and the Vietnam War was, all-around, put in a bad light by the American people.
2) The US has learned this lesson from the Vietnam war. In the war against terrorism, there is more of a reason for America to be involved, and the American citizens understand and support this. Though there is still opposition to this war, as there is to any, this one is more widely supported by American citizens than the Vietnam War.
3) I agree with Ryan and his agreeance with Mitch. I do feel that a country's people do need to be behind the government and the military in order to win the war. Since war affects many people/families, a "backbone" support by the people is vital for a government if they want to make progress in the conflict.
Chris R. 8th
1) Lesson G, being careful what we apply from historical memory is most important. I believe this si most important because it addresses both winning and losing strategies. If we win a war using one strategy,w e should still consider its flaws ina different war, we shouldn't automatically believe it is correct and will work (Korean parallel division and our involvement).
2) I think the USA has applied this lesson most effectively in our hunt and hopeful destruction of AL Qaeda. We learned that containment sometimes isnt the singular option, and we have progressed in attempts to silence the organization as a whole, not just to prevent its expansion. This is similar to the quote of "fighting not to lose, but not to win" which was how the US was described in Vietnam.
3) I agree with Anthony that the American people need to support the war we are entering, and fully stand by that when we are actually drafting, but as far as minor conflicts that require military aid without a draft, if the government believes it is the best option for our nation, sometimes it is better to enter the conflict against popular support, notably because as Anthony said, there is always going to be people for and against a war, so I believe the best outcome should be chosen without the peoples "voice".
Connor Dorion Period 3
1) Lesson B, make it quick; make it decisive. A key part of "losing" Vietnam was that we dragged it out for too long.
2)No they did not, they are dragging the war that we are involved with out way too long as well.
3) I agree with Chris, on the fact that we shouldn't always refer back to old methods to win wars.
Nick D. Period 3
1. I think lesson E is the most important of the 11 only because if you have no support for a war, nobody will be willing to fight it and it will be bad.
2. I think the U.S. learned from their mistake in the Vietnam war and got everybody on the band wagon for the fight against terrorism. The U.S. scared the public with the idea of terrorism which makes U.S. citizens want to stop it.
3. I agree with Connor because if the war didn't drag out for so long there would have been less deaths.
Alex H
Period 3
1. Lesson I, since it can be applied to any situation. If the people in power are constantly arguing and refusing to work with each other, absolutely nothing will get done. We saw this with Vietnam, and still in Congress today.
2. No, considering that it is still happening with the war on terrorism. One side wants to pull out, the other wants to stay in, and no progress is actually being made.
3. I agree with Connor. Dragging on a problem will only wear someone out, and it is easier to handle the earlier it's dealt with.
1. I think that the most important lesson that the USA should have learned after the fall of Vietnam was to make war quick and decisive. The drawn out nature of the war caused the American people to rebel against the government and to grow a heavy distrust of the government as a whole.
2. The USA actually did not learn this lesson at all. The war in Iraq dragged on for 9 years, and still has not reached a definitive end. We have had US troops in Afghanistan for the past 12 years, for seemingly no purpose at this point. The same drudgery has been committed by the US government again, to the same degree.
3. I agree with Nick, because the Bush Administration did do a good job of getting the US citizens on the bus with them as far as the "war on terror" went.
Marcus Thimios Period 3
1.) Lesson H. Not restricting the press had a huge impact on the outcome of the Vietnam Conflict. This is important because the amount of coverage this conflict received caused the already low support back home to decrease even more. A strong home front is vital when involved in a long war.
2.)Yes, the US definitely has learned its lesson from the Vietnam Conflict. The evidence is pretty clear because we hardly see anything about current conflicts the US is involved in on the news.
3.)I agree with Mitch Z in that the USA has not learned all that they could from the Vietnam Conflict since we are currently in a similar situation in the Middle East.
Marcus D'Andrea, Period 8
1. I would say Lesson B is pretty important, which states that wars must be quick and decisive. I think this issue is what made Vietnam such a big deal to big with. To this day, it was one of America's longest drawn-out conflicts ever.
2. I would say that we have not learned from this lesson because recent/current wars such as Iraq and Afghanistan rival Vietnam in length. We drew out of Iraq not too long ago but we still remain in Afghanistan after twelve years of fighting.
3. I agree with Marcus Thimios, because it's true that we are still fighting drawn-out wars in the Middle East today.
Hank P. Period 8
1. Lesson F: The United States is not all-powerful. I believe this is the most important because the United States needs to realize that just because they go into a situation, it doesn´t mean that everyone is going to stop what they are doing and allow the United States to intervene. Also, the U.S. was arrogant at the time, as it believed that at a mere flick of the wrist, the Vietnamese would bow down to their will and allow the U.S. to win and promote their agenda. Additionally, the U.S. learned to be familiar with its strengths and abilities.
2. I believe that the United States sort-of learned this lesson. For the most part, the U.S. has dealt with conflicts that it knew it could handle but in the case of Afghanistan and Iraq, the U.S. was not totally aware of the situation. Again, similar to Vietnam, the U.S. went into the middle east prepared to walk in and win- as was not the case.
3. I agree with Marcus. If the United States went in there with a set plan- ready to take care of business (decisiveness)- the course of the war would have been different, maybe even more favorable.
Alex B. Period 8
1. Lesson B. If we can win wars quickly and decisively, we can achieve our goals with low costs. A long war is never in our best interest.
2. No. The Afghanistan War has been going on for 11 years and so it clearly has not been quick.
3. I agree with Hank. It is important for the United States to keep in mind that arrogance can result in lack of preparation and a disadvantage when entering a war.
1. I think Lesson H was the most important lesson the USA could have learned from Vietnam. This was the first television war and as a result American citizens were able to see every nasty detail at home. Although the fighting was about as brutal as any other war, the fact that the battles were publicized directly affected Americans' view on this war. Americans were also able to see the lack of progress for US forces, making them feel like they were losing soldiers for nothing. Many US wars have had a lack of progress at times but since this war was televised, many more people opposed it leading to the eventual abandonment of the war altogether.
2. Yes, the US has learned this lesson because there are no longer photos/videos of active skirmishes that are broadcasted uncut on the news every night since Vietnam ended. They realized it was a better idea to not show any footage (victories or defeats)and just tell US citizens what is happening and make them take their word for it. Videos don't lie, but the government can make things seem more optimistic by talking about the war's progress in their own (perhaps skewed) words.
3.I agree with Alex because the longer a war goes on, the more soldiers will die in battle, and it will start to affect the people at
home. Since the war is taking so long, more and more people will start to believe that no progress is being made (which will make it seem like soldiers are dying in vain) and this loss of support of the war could potentially force the government to listen to its people and leave the conflict.
1. I think lesson B is the most important lesson from the packet, as a quick and decisive war, no matter the repercussions, is usually supported by the people. All citizens want is for their family members, the soldiers, to return as soon as possible. If that can be assured, all other support will follow.
2. Most recently, with the war in Iraq dragging out over 10 years, and the one in Afghanistan finally concluding after 12 years, the US has still not managed to learn its lesson about quick wars. However, when dealing with such terrain, such as desert lands, a short war is not expected. In response, the government should enact some of solution E by communicating with the people.
3. I agree with Jack having lesson H as the most important lesson. Gruesome footage is, even resulting from a war that is just and meaningful, can change the support of a nation's citizens from favorable to downright opposition.
1. I believe that lesson F is the most important. The United States has long held the belief that they not only all-powerful, but that they are the only all-powerful nation. The defeat at Vietnam should have showed the US government that they should not be meddling in foreign affairs as a World Police. If we would have used this lesson during Desert Storm/Desert Shield, and the Wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, many American soldiers and foreign civilians would still be alive today.
2. No, the US didn't learn its lesson because we proceeded to invade several Middle Eastern nations after Vietnam. If we had truly learned our lesson, we would have adopted pacifism and diplomatic solutions before sending in the troops.
3. I disagree with Ryan because war is no longer a necessity in this day and age. No matter how quick or decisive it is, people lose their lives- and I believe that should be reason enough to stay out of war.
1) I believe that the most important lesson that the U.S. should have learned from Vietnam is Lesson F: The United States is not all-powerful. This lesson is the most important because the U.S. needed to be taught that we can't go meddling in others people business all the time and think that we will always come out on top. Failure and defeat needed to become a reality so that we could make better thought out decisions.
2) The U.S. definitely has not learned this lesson yet. We are now in a very similar situation in the Middle East as we were in Vietnam. We are fighting an invisible enemy and we cannot seem to get ourselves out of the conflicts, even though we thought we would be out rather quickly.
3) I agree with Brian's choice. I think that this lesson would have had the most benefits if we had actually learned it when we had the opportunity to in Vietnam.
Zach D., 3rd Period
1. I think that lesson B is the most important lesson: make it quick, make it decisive. The U.S. was involved in Vietnam beginning after the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution was passed in 1964 up until 1973 when the last U.S. troops were removed. The war began to lose favor with Americans because of how long it lasted.
2. I don’t think the United States has learned this lesson because the Iraq War and War in Afghanistan have each lasted for more than a decade. The U.S. has spent trillions of dollars in these conflicts and thousands of soldiers have died in the fighting.
3. I agree with Katelin’s post, the U.S. has failed to learn that they are not all-powerful. Multiple times, the United States has intervened in foreign affairs, and once they are involved, it takes a long time for them to end the conflict and return home.
Connor Bowen (P3)
1. Probably lesson E, success in a war means you are accomplishing what the people as a whole want it to accomplish, in this case the people wanted out but the government kept it going unsupported.
2. For the most part they have learned it because they are talking about withdrawing troops some places where the people have shown discontent in our being there and have done so in others.
3. Although I believe Zach's choice was important, I don't think it is the most important but it is still very useful to make it as quick a war as possible.
Sam F. Period 3
1. Lesson F because the US has time and time again thrust itself into conflicts believing that it can resolve them with little to no effort. This was seen in Korea and Vietnam, as well as in Iraq and Afghanistan today. All of these conflicts were supposed to be short and met with little opposition. What ended up happening was a longer than expected war with worse consequences.
2. I think that the United States has half-learned their lesson. Some of these conflicts the US might have been better off not getting involved in in the first place, but they have learned that there is a point where you have to "cut your losses and run", which was something not seen in Vietnam.
3. I agree with Zach, Katelin, and Brian in that the US needs to learn when and when not to get involved in foreign conflicts. The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan were necessary when they began, but they are starting to become more and more of a burden for the US as time progresses.
1. I think the most important lesson that the US should have learned was lesson E because a country is not capable of winning a war if it isn't backed by its citizens. I think that if the US had had the support of the US citizens, we would have been much more successful in the war.
2. I do believe that the US has learned from this lesson because the US has made an effort to keep its citizens more informed about its decisions and actions like with Iraq. There are still people who don't support the war, and they are taking that into account and begging to pull troops out.
3. I think that Sam's points are accurate, but I don't think that it's the most important lesson that the US should have learned because we are never going to go to war and tell the public that it's going to be a long war, because the US would never have the support of the citizens, thus contradicting Lesson E.
1. Lesson E is the most important. I feel that if a country cannot gain the support of its own citizens for a war, then the war is most likely lost as the people in the hostile nation have a reason to fight us and will win against soldiers with little morale.
2. The USA has learned from Vietnam in the current involvements on terror. Although it is now starting to drag and people are not liking it much anymore, people were 'pro-war' at the start due to good intentions represented by the government. However as the war is dragging on, the government is doing its best not to prolong the war any further and to not make it another Vietnam.
3. I agree with Katherine for her choice of E as well for the same reasons that I have picked E. A nation without the support of its people in a war is not as effective as a nation in a war with the support of its people.
1. I believe that the most important lesson to be learned from Vietnam is Lesson B: Make it quick; make it decisive. This is because war in a democratic country depends upon the public’s opinion of it. When wars drag out over extended periods of time, as they almost always do, public opinion often plummets. When fighting a strongly moral war, such as World War II, this is not such a factor because the citizens are willing to sacrifice for victory. In a war like Vietnam many people felt the war did not affect the USA and did not fully understand the reason for being there. For this reason it is important to win such a war quickly before public opinion of it begins to fall.
2. I don’t think the USA learned this lesson very well. Although, for example, the US led Operation Desert Storm successfully liberated Kuwait fairly quickly, it ultimately helped lead to extended US involvement in Iraq, Afghanistan, and generally the Middle East. Many people have criticized the government for the length of these occupations, and public support dropped accordingly.
3. I mostly agree with Iavor, since being honest with the public helps to keep opinion of the war high. However, I don’t think it is the most important lesson, since if the war is one quickly the public opinion will not have time to fall very much.
Spelling errors bother me. I meant "won."
Daniel Sikora 8th
1. Lesson A. I feel this is the most important lesson because when taking part in something as big as fighting a war it is important to be fully committed to the cause or else you are just wasting your countries money, resources, time, and lives.
2. I believe that at first in iraq and Afghanistan the us had learned its lesson and was using more of its military force and was more committed do winning but now, the support has slowed down and the war is just dragging on.
3. I agree with daniel in his choice with lesson B being important because in order to gain the support of the public wars need to be quick and decisive and not drawn on to the point people forget what they are even fighting for.
Kendall L 8th
1. Lesson F, it is important for the US to know that they are not all powerful. A leader can be much more powerful when they know to step down or when they know they will be out fought. Before Vietnam we had never really lost a war, and it is important that we don't let this kind of cockiness get to us again.
2. I think we learned this lesson once again after 9/11. We are not un-penetrable and can be defeated. Iraq was a messy situation and I don't think we understood it at the moment. But in general I think we are a lot more careful in the conflicts we get involved with.
3. I disagree with Daniel, I don't think any sort of conflict should take over all of our resources unless it is on our front. We should be equally spread among foreign conflicts.
Mathias S. Period 3
1. Lesson E, level with the people, because without the support of a country's people, the country has no power.
2. They have been trying to use this lesson in recent events. It turns out that the people of the United States are not all for the wars we may currently be involved in, and we are attempting to withdraw troops.
3. I agree with Kendall. If we continue to think that nothing can beat us, it is easy to get caught off guard and begin losing wars.
1. Lesson F: The United States is not all-powerful. I believe that this was the most important lesson that came out of Vietnam because of the way they had acted in the Post-World War II era. Do to the USA's emphatic demonstration of power with the nuclear bomb we were the world super power. The USA seemed be unstoppable, but we needed an ego check. Vietnam provied that check. The world, because of TV, that the USA can be beaten in a military conflict and this severly hurt American power as a global force.
2. I feel that we did not learn our lesson based on the way the USA has handled the war in Iraq and Afghanistan. We have failed to be the all power nation in crushing the enemy. Our national security was broken with the attacks on 9/11 and the Al Qeada fighters have proven to be formittable enemy. We have accomplished many great things in the war we are still currently fighting, but we did not dominate them just like in Vietnam.
3. I agree with Kendall based on the fact that our power was tested on 9/11 and because we share similar view points on the lessons learned.
Carter Bell Period 3
1. I think Lesson A, fight to win, is most important. If you go into a war you can't be half-hearted and need to be ready to give it your all to win.
2. I think the US did not learn its lesson because we pretty much gave up in Iraq and they are still having problems. Also, Afghanistan has pretty much turned into a 2nd Vietnam War but just not as intense. I think we initially went in to win but it has changed over time.
3. I agree with Daniels decision because it would have been my 2nd choice. Countries cannot afford to be fighting long, drawn out wars. They need to go in,get it done quickly, and then get out.
1. Lesson A, because the USA needs to be able to back the war wholly without holding back in order to secure victory.
2. I think we have learned our lesson in terms of being realistic about future conflicts. We have been careful enough around countries like Iraq, Egypt, and Libya as to not waste large amounts of troops and weaponry. Since warfare is changing with the advancement of technology, it becomes easier for the US to destroy targets and accomplish goals without sacrifficing much.
3. I totally agree with carter that Lesson A was the best lesson to learn from, however I do think the US has learned from it because we haven't needed to put in that much effort anyways to get our goals accomplished.
Jackson C. Period 8
1. The US should have come away from the failure in Vietnam with a new knowledge of the rule described in Lesson J: "Do not go it alone when you go to war." The military action in Vietnam was not a UN SecCo measure, and this was a large factor in the US's defeat. Having the support of powerful UN nations (Britain, France, etc.) would have been invaluable to the Americans; we could have scaled down our commitment to this unpopular war and probably would have had a better chance of winning said war.
2. Iraq and Afghanistan were both US-authorized military actions and were not backed officially by the Security Council; however, George W. Bush (henceforth known as W) made sure he had substantial support from allies like France, Britain, and Australia before authorizing any action. Libya was a SecCo-authorized military action, and it was a success. Barry O. had the support of the UN when sending troops, and the combined power of both entities helped dissolve the Socialist regime of Moammar Qaddafi. The US did learn its lesson.
3. Considering I picked Lesson J to be most important, I would have to inherently disagree with Parker, but I can see his reasoning in choosing Lesson A. My counterpoint would be this: even the no-holds-barred strength of the United States' military would, in rare cases, not be enough (assuming we don't use nukes) to decimate a powerful enemy singlehandedly and win a war. They still would need some amount of foreign support.
I think the most important lesson the United States should have learned was Lesson B (Make it quick; Make it decisive). This goes with anything the government does, especially war. In Vietnam the United States wasted too much money, time and used too many troops. The United states should have used more force quicker that way the war would not lose support and also if the war was finished quicker overall less money would be spent.
The United States really hasn’t learned from this lesson in its current wars. The total cost of War since 2001 is over $1,000,000,000,000 and we have spent 12 years and counting and the war has still not come to an end. After 9/11 people supported the war but with a long drawn out war people no longer support it that much.
Although I liked what Jackson said and agree with him in many ways I don’t think it is necessarily bad to go into war without help from other countries depending on the situation. Also the Security council doesn’t really have much power so the support from them doesn’t help much.
1) I think the most important lesson the United States should have learned was Lesson B (Make it quick; Make it decisive). This goes with anything the government does, especially war. In Vietnam the United States wasted too much money, time and used too many troops. The United states should have used more force quicker that way the war would not lose support and also if the war was finished quicker overall less money would be spent.
2) The United States really hasn’t learned from this lesson in its current wars. The total cost of War since 2001 is over $1,000,000,000,000 and we have spent 12 years and counting and the war has still not come to an end. After 9/11 people supported the war but with a long drawn out war people no longer support it that much.
3) Although I liked what Jackson said and agree with him in many ways I don’t think it is necessarily bad to go into war without help from other countries depending on the situation. Also the Security council doesn’t really have much power so the support from them doesn’t help much.
Matt HUTCHings p.3
1. A lesson the US should have learned was that it's harder to fight a war for another country because there is no moral to be fighting and it's harder to fight an enemy who knows the area better than we do.
2. No. When fighting in these kinda of wars, there is always another country backing up the other side when we've underestimated our enemy.
3. The amount of money the person above me stated that was spent on this war is dispersed between 12 years and the amount shouldn't look as big as it does.
Matt Arenberg Period 3
1. Lesson B, make it quick; make it decisive. This lesson is the most important in my opinion because if you look at any war, the winners are the one that got out of the gates very quickly and put their enemy on their back foot. It's important to get the enemy into chaos because then you will have a much easier time defeating them.
2. Yes because when we first started the war in Iraq and in Afghanistan, we steamrolled most of the Al-Queda and eventually they started hitting us back, but for the most part I think that they did.
3. I agree with Patrick O'Malley because he chose the same lesson as his most important. His facts that he has that explain why he chose that lesson make a lot of sense.
1. I think that lesson B is the most important. Society is far different than it used to be, and people no longer tolerate long, drawn out wars. No matter how worthy the cause, people nowadays almost always stop supporting a war that continues on for years.
2. We definitely did NOT learn the lesson. Right after 9/11, a majority of the country fully supported the wars because the terror attacks were still fresh on everyone's mind. But the wars have dragged on for 12 years, costed hundreds of billions if not trillions of dollars, and thousands of soldiers have died... and we just aren't seeing enough results. Because of that, the wars are very unpopular now in the US and a majority of the country wants us to pull out.
3. I agree with Patrick because we both think that lesson B was the most important. Pat brings up many of the same points I did, so we both see eye to eye on the subject.
Jordan Wenrich Period 8
1) I think that Lesson A, Fight to win, is the most important, and the USA should have learned from Vietnam. This is because the USA came into the conflict with the soldiers being unenthusiastic, and they didn’t give full effort into the war effort. Therefore we did not fight to win so we wasted a ton of money, and lives in the conflict
2) I do not think that the USA learned its lesson in Iraq etc, because all thosewars have been unpopular. Therefore, most of the soldiers do not want to be in the conflict, and they are there to mostly take up space. Therefore, we are not exactly fighting to win, ad that is why Iraq has dragged on for a long time.
3) I agree with Daniel Sikoras answer of the most important lesson being fight to win. This is because he makes a great point about being fully committed, and that is how you win.
Patrick S. 3rd
1. Lesson B. Make war quick and decisive. There is no need to beat around the bush and not fully commit. If you are going to intervene with a conflict, you should try to fully accomplish your mission is as little time as possible. It's better for everyone involved, including civilians
2. I think that over time we have learned our lesson, but we should have learned much earlier. These modern day war/conflicts are difficult to win/end. They drag out and need to avoided.
3. I agree with Jordan. I feel that lesson A and B are almost 1 in the same. Go into a war to win, as quickly and as easily as you can. Troop morale will be boosted, as well as public support
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